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Old 08-09-2003, 06:24 PM   #1
Spoolin
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Turbo???????

Well as I can see the turbo kit that is out uses a 1st gen eclipse turbo am I right? If so for more power couldn't you just upgrade to a 16G or a 20G which you can get brand new at a number of shops online. If you can use those turbo's then they should bolt right up to the kit right? Of course there would be need for further mods to keep it reliable. I am just curious could someone let me know. Thanks.
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Old 08-09-2003, 07:44 PM   #2
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I really don't know what kind of turbo they use on that kit, but don't assume that a bigger turbo is automatically going to get you more power. I've got a crapped out Sunbird T25 turbo that works just fine on my setup, and gets it up to 10 psi no problem, and quick! Unless you WANT excessive turbo lag, then forget about the bigger turbos. These 2.2's are not heavy breathers, therefore not well suited to large turbos.

I am by NO means an expert on this topic, but from what I've read, an oversized turbo can give you unexpected and undesirable results. I guess they're great for upper RPM ranges, but won't do much for you in the lower rpm range, where these truck really need the help.
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Old 08-09-2003, 08:32 PM   #3
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I don't know if this will help you guys or not, but turbos should be matched to the application/rpm range/type of driving by using calculations and compressor maps. I found some turbo calculators and compressor maps HERE.

Of course there's a lot more to choosing the right turbo but that site has some helpful stuff.
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Old 08-09-2003, 09:08 PM   #4
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Thanks for that info Mitch. I suppose I should actually look into that someday, instead of selecting my turbo according to available funds in my PayPal account.
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Old 08-11-2003, 11:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by blades
Thanks for that info Mitch. I suppose I should actually look into that someday, instead of selecting my turbo according to available funds in my PayPal account.
That is the end all of decisions though

There is also ALOT of info on turbo selection at www.stealth316.com
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Old 08-11-2003, 04:58 PM   #6
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Well a 16G is a smaller turbo with low end and top end but it is significantly bigger than the turbo that comes with the kit. What I am saying is this possible to swap to the kit.

Blades I have Read a little about your setup and you are very knowledgeable in this area. I personally think you have done a good job. But what I am saying is the majority of the times my cars had 2.0 motors not 2.2 maybe some fueling and a little tuneing is all this truck needs to be able to run the bigger turbos but if people are scared of blowing their motors then go with forged internals and go to a 20G.

Yes with smaller turbos you build boost faster but they don't reward with as much power as say the 20G. Basically the turbo that comes with the kit set at 10 psi is the equivalent to say a 20G at 3-4 psi yes their is lag but the power gains once you get through the lower gears is by far worth the lag. So you might not hit your full boost in first or maybe even second (depending on your max PSI) but when you race the guy with the smaller turbo and when you hit third you will fly by him like he's standing still. That is all I am trying to say I am not argueing with anyone I am just replying with the knowledge and what I have experienced.

In my MR2 I had a 20G and the guy I raced in his MR2 had a modified stock turbo (A CT26 with a 50 trim) from a stop he took me through the first 2 gears but when I hit third and my turbo really got to breath I flew by him and the look on his face was priceless. he was running 15PSI I was running 11PSI that is just a example. Do you get what I am trying to say?
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Old 08-11-2003, 10:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spoolin

Blades I have Read a little about your setup and you are very knowledgeable in this area.

You're too kind, Spoolin'. When I say I'm no expert in this area, I really mean it. Truth be told, I went into this project with very little knowledge of turbos, basically just the ability to figure out what I needed, and sized my turbo with a best guesstimate, based on the fact that the Sunbird was a 2.0 engine, so I reasoned that it certainly wouldn't be "too much" turbo for my engine, wanting to err on the side of safety.

I think I'm seeing what you're saying about turbo sizing, but still struggling with the psi vs. "power" issue, since you seem to indicate that there IS a distinction between the two. I guess all along I've mistakenly perceived psi as being the power output of the turbo. I really shouldn't be struggling with this concept, but I am.

I can understand how a larger turbo has the ability to move more air volume at a lower psi than a smaller turbo at a higher psi. The larger turbo is simply a larger pump. BUT, what I don't understand is how you can push MORE air thru the engine without seeing the resultant higher psi that I assume would be associated with attempting to flow more air thru the same restriction.

At any rate, to get back to your original question, I believe you could swap the turbos because presumably they would both have the same mounting flange hole pattern. Best bet would be to contact (Dave?) directly at www.turbos-10.com (I'm assuming that's the kit you were refering to).
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Last edited by blades; 08-12-2003 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 08-12-2003, 07:51 AM   #8
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Blades is on the right track.

The motor will only use a certain CFM of air at a given PSI of boost and RPM. You cannot change that without changing the flow characteristics of the head/intake/exhaust/combustion chamber.

Lets look at a quick example. We have a 2.2 motor. It flows 300cfm (not real numbers just used for examples, if you want real numbers go to stealth316.com and use thier calculators) at 10psi boost. That is all that motor will flow at 10psi. You cannot shove any more air into/out of the motor at that pressure. You can move more air, by increasing pressure. But doubleing pressure does not necessarily mean you double CFM. 14psi would prolly see somewhere around 325cfm.

Where you see the gains on the larger turbos is in the effeciency. A larger turbo will move more air (CFM) at a given boost level than a smaller turbo. When you pressurize air it is heated, there is no way around that (hence the need for an intercooler). SO...if a larger turbo is more effecient, it will heat the air less, and make more power do to the denser air charge entering the intake.

SO...To size a turbo properly you need to calculate the CFM of your motor at a given pressure. Then look at compressor flow maps and pick one that will land your CFM and boost into the most effecienct "ring" on on the flow map.



If you look at that map you can see along the bottom you have a CFM rating, then along the side you have a pressure ratio ( a pressure ratio is simply (14.5+boost)/14.5 ) so you can take your boost and plot it on the Y axis and your CFM and plot that on the X axis and where the 2 meet you want to be in the inner most "ring" on that map. Those rings represent effeciency levels.

For our example of 300 cfm at 10psi boost we have a Pressure ratio of 1.68 and a 300 cfm, we are inside the inner most effeciency ring (77%). This is good and would be a good choice for a compressor side of the turbo.

Once you ahve done all this and chosen a particular turbo, you should do the same thing for the exhaust side, and then create a "hybrid" turbo. This will give you the best spool/power balance, for your particular engine. However these can get expensive, as well as the second you change something your turbo is no longer "optimized" for your application. BUT would still work jsut fine, just not at "optimum"

Also, the idea that a larger turbo will spool "slower" than a smaller turbo is kind of a mis-nomer. Typicaly it is a combination of factors that efect spool, not just turbo size. Exhaust size and restriction (from the turbo back), TUNING...you can change the tuning around spool up and change when the turbo spools.

There is so much more I could type and I can go on for hours, but my hands are starting to hurt, and to be quite honest, I've posted this like 6 times now.
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Old 08-12-2003, 12:00 PM   #9
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First time I've ever *REALLY* looked at a compressor map. Thanks for 'splaining that Mikey!

All that knowledge.... YOU'RE the one who should have a turbo on your truck!
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Old 08-12-2003, 02:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by blades
......... YOU'RE the one who should have a turbo on your truck!
Thats the idea...jsut gotta find the money
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